Prime Minister Rama was in Dublin, Ireland, today to take part in an event organised by the Institute of International and European Affairs (IIEA). Titled “Albania’s European Journey: From Aspiration to Integration”, the event focused on Albania’s path to European Union membership.

***

-Welcome to the IIEA. My name is John O’Brennan, and I’m delighted to moderate this session this morning on Albania’s European journey from aspiration to integration. 

We are delighted to welcome Prime Minister Edi Rama and his team to the institute, and we look forward to an interesting and absorbing discussion. Just before I formally introduce the Prime Minister, a few words about how the session will work. The Prime Minister will make some opening remarks from his seat; we’ll then proceed to a conversation, and then we’ll open everything up to the floor as usual.

We’re very delighted that a large audience is joining us this morning online, and I’m conscious of that. So, if you are online and you would like to ask a question, all you’ve got to do is use the Q&A function, and we can then relay those questions to the Prime Minister. If you’re in the room, all you’ve got to do is put up your hand and tell us what your affiliation is. Okay. So, we are delighted to welcome Prime Minister Rama, and we’re welcoming him at a particularly critical juncture, I would argue, for the enlargement process and for Europe.

Just about a month ago, the European Commission published its new paper preparing for a wider union, which is supposed to provide a pathway to further integration and for successful enlargement. The European Council will of course consider that document, and just last week in Brussels we saw the publication of the annual Commission reports on the candidates for accession, including Albania. So, we have a lot to talk about, and we’re delighted that the prime minister is here on the margins of the European meetings taking place in Dublin this week. Now, just to introduce the prime minister, Mr Rama has been prime minister of Albania since 2013. Before that, he was a highly successful mayor of Tirana. He is a writer. He is a public intellectual, a painter and a professor. And he is currently serving his fourth consecutive term as prime minister, which makes him one of the longest-serving prime ministers of the current cohort in Europe. He continues, along with his government, to place European integration at the forefront of Albania’s foreign policy. It’s a great pleasure to welcome him to Dublin, and I’ll invite you now, Prime Minister, to make your opening remarks. Thank you very much! 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: As I told you before, it should be a very important place is because my team wanted me to wake up at 6 in the morning, take the flight from Paris and to come here to have this conversation. And when we arrived at the airport, the lady who welcomed us said that I was the first to arrive among all the other prime ministers. I said yes because I have something more important than them to do. I have to speak here.

So, thank you for the invitation, and I hope first and foremost that this conversation is not boring, and I think that the best is to have it with questions and answers because you don’t need a long speech from me, and I can tell you I can speak very long, as all Balkan men.

We are in a very defining moment of our history, I would say, because we see not just the horizon, which has always been the case, but we see the open door as a true and real possibility to cross and to be part of this European family. It’s a momentum that has not been there until not long ago and has become a kind of momentum where you know things that looked impossible seem to be possible, and I hope that we will catch this momentum and that we will be able to cross the border that has divided us from Europe for a long time, and finally we’ll be part of this family. 

So this is a bit the situation as I see it it’s a momentous situation that on our side we have to do our very best to be up to the expectations of the other side and then of course Europe has a complicated process of decision making, you need 27 and then there are countries like France where the ratification of the session treaty for a member state for a new member state goes through the need of two third of the parliament or referendum and so on and so for further but the most important is to succeed in closing the chapters and in ending the negotiation successfully and I must say that as we are today we are in a good track and everything is going by the book as agreed with the commission and the Irish presidency has been very helpful.

 

-Thank you very much. Can I just ask you, your stated ambition is to conclude the negotiations by the end of 2027. You’re in a position now where you have opened all the clusters, and, as you say, Albania is judged to be making significant progress. But do you think 2027 is a realistic target, especially given the new proposal from the Commission for gradual integration, and perhaps you might just talk through your reaction to the proposal on gradual integration and what it might mean for Albania?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: I would not have thought so if the calendar had not been agreed with the Commission. So the Commission has the same opinion that the end of 27 is ambitious, but it’s possible. So, we are going to put all our efforts into making it happen. End of 27. On the other hand the gradual integration is u is something for which myself I have fought long time. Before this started to take shape, of course, not just alone but also with other colleagues, to make some sense of the whole process, because while the countries have to go through the so-called merit-based process and to do their homework, the gap between the candidates and the member states in terms of finance, economy, integration in the common market and so on becomes wider and wider. So, to go from an all-or-nothing situation to a situation where countries are gradually brought in is the right approach, and it has materialised. The new growth plan is part of this approach. 

And I believe more can be done and more should be done, but it’s better than before, when there was nothing but homework with no incentives.

 

– And on that issue, um, how do you see the recent election in Serbia? The previous government was considered by some to be a block on integration in the Balkans region. Are there new possibilities arising out of this new government in Belgrade and that integration across the region, which Brussels, of course, is broadly in favour of, might actually happen? It’s part of this.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: It’s not a secret that the commission had issues with the previous with the previous administration in Serbia and the previous government issues related to rule of law, issues related to certain very important and fundamental let’s say requests of the European Union. But on the other hand, I think it’s too early to say something accurate about what’s going to be next.

It looks like Serbia is going through a political and social experiment with this, um, so-called student list and with this method of selection and of election of the people that are in parliament or the people that will be in government. So, it’s quite new in many ways. But as far as we, as Albanians, and Albania itself are concerned, it looks like there’s no openness when it comes to normalisation with Kosovo. There is no openness when it comes to the sanctions towards Russia.

There is no openness when it comes to what, as a matter of fact, has been defined as closed before with the previous government. So, let’s see, it’s interesting, but it’s too early to be enthusiastic about that change, and for us, as far as there is no openness towards Kosovo and towards normalisation, it means that the ghost of the past will continue to hound Belgrade and will continue to impede the Serbian nation from making the very needed catharsis that is missing there.

-Can I just ask about Albania and the scale of change? Anybody who has visited Albania over the last 25 years, I think, can see the extraordinary material change; especially since you became prime minister, GDP has gone up very significantly. GDP per capita has increased by a factor of three. And yet there are still very large numbers of Albanian citizens choosing to leave. You’ve had a very high level of outward migration, which is also present in the other Western Balkan states.

So I wonder how you can account for this: that despite being much more successful and rich, lots of Albanians are still deciding to leave the country and live and work elsewhere. 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, I have to deal with this question very often, but not often in a place like this one where migrating once upon a time was the only way out that the people of this country saw and it was part of the Irish way of being in in in their own home as the best solution to look to the future with more with more hope, and it’s starting to change not simply when Ireland started to grow, but when Ireland started to give to people the  reasons to have a choice between staying or living and not to leave as the only choice. And this is something that will come also for us.

But on the other hand, we should not underestimate the nature of the new world. You know, it’s a new world that gets to young people through the mirror of the smartphone and shows itself not with its true colours, but with some very wonderful colours, and it’s very hard to think that for a young person living in a remote area in Albania, it would not be attractive to say, ” Okay, 1 hour from here it’s what I’m just watching, being surrounded by not much opportunity, so why not reach the future in one hour and why wait for the future that we may take another 10 years. So, it’s quite a different world.

And last but not least, one should not forget that Albanians have been a people who have moved, and suddenly, in the middle of the previous century, they were knocked down by a very brutal force, a regime that turned Albania into the North Korea of Europe and for half a century we were not allowed to move and leaving the country was high treason. So, you must also consider this.

So there are many factors. Yes, there are people who continue to leave, but there are also people coming back, and it will balance, as in every other country, when Albania starts to offer the people something similar to the average of the European Union. Until then, we’ll have to deal with that.

–A reminder to everybody, both here and online, that you can put questions to the prime minister. If you’re online, we can relay them through the Q&A function, and if you’re in the room, I will come to you in just a moment; you can just raise your hand.

I have one other question, Prime Minister, which is about the protests which began in May, the so-called flamingo revolution, which started largely as an environmental protest but which then seemed to escalate to be about other things, including governance, the rule of law and corruption. Can you give us your take on what has happened, and does it complicate your task in trying to convince the European Council and the Commission that you’re making progress on chapters 23 and 24, in particular, the most crucial ones of all within the accession framework?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Well, the great thing about the Commission is that, for as much as the Commission is a very sophisticated torturer of countries that want to join. Is also a very sophisticated machine getting to the facts. And, , assessing countries based on factual grounds. So, this is the good part of it because today you get many types of reports that are based on perceptions that are based on, you know, even vested interests, while the commission report is a really very heavy and very credible assessment of what is going well, what is not going so well, what has been done, what is not being done enough and what has to be done.

So, after so much outrage with an incredible amplifier in the world media, we got a report that was practically not influenced by that in any shape or form when it comes to the facts. So, in that sense, there is no chance that this thing will influence the commission in a bad way, because influencing the commission is impossible.

It’s a ruthless machine of bureaucracy that I don’t think humanity has created in a copy, and it is not possible to copy. It’s unique. On the other hand, well, let’s be honest. This flamingo revolution, which, by the name, is very appealing, is the result of a global hate of Donald Trump. If the shadow of Donald Trump would not have been in the background of that environmental u environmental issue, which is not in fact even an issue, you would not have heard about flamingos in Albania.

So, all Donald Trump opponents, adversaries, critics, haters found the boulevard of Tirana to make the fight like Caesar found South Albania to have a final say against Pompeo, you know. So, this is what it is nowadays, you know. And what I’ve experienced is how hard it is for a small country, especiall,y to place the truth in the large space of the media today. So many lies, so many half-truths, which are even worse lies, have been spread. And I’m sure if I ask you now, you think that it’s about an Ireland that has been privatised by the Trump family, right?

Is what you think?

 

-No, it’s not actually.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: What do you think it is?

 

-As an Albanian, I would worry right now about being close to the Trump family because we have a completely different landscape from January in Washington. There are going to be very serious investigations of Trump and people close to him. And surely, you risk doing real reputational damage to your country at this very important time by being so close to what is commonly perceived to be the single most corrupt administration in American history.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: This is this is another this is another heavy thing to deal with because number one as an Albanian person while I think Irish people are very similar to us when it comes to loyalties We are we are not French. We are, you know, stubborn and not sophisticated people. 

-I hope there’s nobody from the French embassy here. 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, no, no. They are not, because the French are flexible and sophisticated. We are not so refined. So, and we we take pride in doing in not being so refined to to base our loyalties on simple daily bases interest. So, when Trump won, I was told that I was in great danger because I am friends with George Soros and his son, which is true. But I didn’t give up my friendship and my loyalty to friends that come from a long time. On the other hand, there is another truth that I say all the time when I talk about this thing.

And nobody writes about it or says it. When Jared Kushner and I met, and we had the first conversation about this project, Donald Trump future was not so clear he was not yet a candidate, but he was a very clear candidate to go to jail. So, I didn’t think about that.

I saw an American guy who wanted to do something in my country, and as Albania is very welcoming to every American, being the son of George Soros or being the son-in-law of Donald Trump, and I hate this kind of logic because I come from communism, where being the son of or being the son-in-law of could cost you jail time or could be for you an elevating thing.

So, I don’t think we belong to a civilisation and to a culture that should be conditioned by this type of liaison and theories but should judge things on merit. I cannot give a damn what will go on in the United States because what I know is that when it comes to this project, there is nothing to hide. There is nothing to be afraid of.

There is nothing to be less proud of because it’s an attempt to do something transformational for our country and to try and create a destination which would be showing that development and protection of nature are not necessarily contradictory but can be complementary. So it’s a noble effort for my country, and um the whole world can jump through the media and through social media and try to say the contrary out of hate, out of jealousy, out of misunderstanding, out of misinformation, out of everything. But the facts are facts. And we have a page which is called Flamingo Mirror.

You can go there, and there you have all the facts, not rhetoric, not explanations, but just facts. And through the facts, you will see that Jared Kushner didn’t have anything different.Inn terms of treatment, whether they are international, you will see that there is no Ireland sold; there is no Ireland given in concession, and guess wha? Theree is not yet a deal. Why is there not yet a deal?

Because, forthree years or more w,e ahave beennegotiating, and because our side is keeping a position that the Republic of Albania should be a shareholder in this development, and only 8% of the Island can be buil. As foro the other investment, which is a private investmen,t there is not yet a project presented. Why is theree not yet a project?

Because the government of Albania has been ve,,ry very rigorous in asking for a project that should be an emblem of Europe,, not a speculati,on and not something that would immediately relate the imaginahe collective with, kind of,, you kn,ow wild American development and whatever you can say.

-But do you not worry that these people are irredeemably corrupt, and when you put 23 and 24

Prime Minister Edi Rama: What does it mean, these people? You know…

-Trump and his family and his actions. 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: What does it mean, these people? You know what I worry about is how to do what is best for my country, how to bring investment to my country and how every investment and every development is based on the principles and the legal boundaries that oblige everyone. To comply, judging people as corrupt or honest is frankly not my way of looking at the world.

Who is corrupt and who is honest are defined by the court of law are not defined by the public court and it’s not about me to judge what is going on in the United States or in Ireland or elsewhere. I’m tall; I’m taller than Trump, but Albania is much smaller than the United States. So, it’s not for me, although I’m told to look to anyone from above and to judge and to name names and to show. No, it’s I’m sorry. I’ve seen this film before.

I don’t want this to be reported in a democratic space, in a democratic society, in European society; you know, everyone has their own responsibility. Everyone should be judged based on merit, and every case should be scrutinised based on facts. You know, because we are living in a in a in a world that has is losing the baseline.

-But some people would argue that your depiction of the protesters as somehow being influenced by external forces is unfair. That actually there are hundreds of thousands of Albanians who have been out on the streets since who are actually deeply concerned about the rule of law and about governance.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, hundreds of thousands is a number that doesn’t fit with our population and either with the perimeter of our boulevard. But it doesn’t matter; there were some massive protests at the beginning of June that we took very seriously, and we addressed the concerns in several ways, from taking some measures to bring our government and the state closer through the new technology that we have put in place by becoming a country that has 95% of services online and this and that, also through a whole package to ease the life of people while the costs are rising for many reasons everywhere.

So, we have addressed this, but there has been foreign influence; this is a fact. This is not something to offend anyone. I never said that the protests were organised by the Iranian regime. I said that the Iranian regime has its own hands in fueling the protests through a lot of interference through social media, and this is a fact. It’s no,t and many other hands have been involved, and after the beginning of June, the protest is not anymore what it wa;s there is no revolution, there are no flamingos any anymore.

There are different types of birds there. It’s the political opposition. It’s a combination of fringes from the extreme left to the extreme right, with their legitimate right to gather to do whatever they want. And there was violence, a lot of violence, which is unacceptable. So, when it comes to all the rest, I’m quite comfortable because I can address you and everyone in the commission report. So, there are problems in Albania with corruption. Of course there are. But is the country sitting idle, or isit  it fighting corruption?

Not only is the country fighting corruption but for the first time for the first time we have a system that is fighting corruption. Until not long ago, corruption was a system. Today, a system is engaging against corruption, and this is a fact. So I believe that we are in a good place. I believe that we need to redistribute more, but to redistribute mor,e you need to have more. You can’t redistribute what you don’t have. So in every step that we created new possibilities, we have increased the amount of redistribution.

–So I’d like to throw this out to our audience. 

– I first visited Albania in 2004, having lived in the Caucasus in Central Asia, and the one thing that struck me when I hit Tirana was how all those communist era buildings had been painted brightcoloursr. It was like looking at a rainbow when you looked out from the balcony. And I was asking, how come no other country has done this? Who has done this? And they told me it was the mayor of Tirana who was none other than yoursel,f of course, at that time. And they explained that it was your background as an artist, perhaps, that had led you to see this as an opportunity to redecorate the city. I want to ask you about tomorrow’s meeting, the European Political Community.  What are your hopes and expectations? because there’s a there there are some criticisms about this. Um format that it’s perhaps too broad that it doesn’t have any conclusions at the end of it.

So, from your perspective, what does it serve? And, of course right now, as we sit here, there’s a meeting going on in Abu Dhabi where we have US-sponsored talks with Russia on not only the future of Ukraine, but the Kremlin has made it clear they would also like to discuss the European security architecture, and of course Donald Trump has also said that he’d like to see a big, beautiful agreement encompassing all of Europe.

So it seems that, as we meet here in Dublin, we think we’re talking about the future of Europe in Dublin, but far away in Abu Dhabi, you know, leaders of Russia and the United States think that they’re also talking about the future of Europe. So maybe you could speak to that as well. I would appreciate it. 

-Thank you, Prime Minister, for coming and giving us such an interesting talk. Great credit is due to Albania for the amazing progress that has been made, and I saw that last year myself when I was there. In a sense, my question is like the earlier one. How do you, as a country living in the Balkan area, see how this situation with the war in Ukraine can be resolved? I know your relations with Russia have dropped down to a pretty low level because of the war, but because you’re living in the region close to what has been, um, happening between Russia and Ukraine and the whole coming from a long communist background, do you have any insight as to how this war might be ended? Thank you.

 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: So, more or less, it’s two questions here and first of all, I would start with the end. It’s not that the war dropped our relationship with Russia as Albania. We had dropped relations with Russia since 1960, when Albania disengaged from the rest of the Eastern bloc again in the name of loyalty because our dictator said that he would not follow Rusvelt and the rest; we considered traitors, but Albania would stay loyal to Stalin. So, when even the Russians gave Stalin up, Albanians kept Stalin.

So, this continued until 1990 because Josif  Visarjonovich was in one of our most important squares, looking at us. And then, since 1990, we restarted diplomatic relations, but at a very insignificant level. And so, we are the only country in Europe from which no plane has ever left for the Kremlin since 1960,, and no plane has ever come from the Kremlin since 1960. So, we never had a high-level meeting. This is our relationship with Russia, and frankly, we don’t miss Russia. 

I don’t see any appetite to re-engage with Russia at a higher level, and because of that, I can say, without having any fear of being considered a Russian puppet, that Europe made a big mistake from day one and it’s more and more obvio, and it’s costing more and more to give up diplomacy and to put every bet on weaponry and to practically change its nature because Europe has always been about diplomacy first and has never been about weaponry first.

So, betting on a final victory against Russia and cutting every bridge and stopping every talk with Russia was a big mistake. And Europe then kind of outsourced the quest for peace to Donald Trump and to Witkoff is something that will remain in European books of history as an aberration. So, u the fact that today, as the gentleman said in Abu Dhabi, there is Ukraine, there is Russia, there is the United States, but there is no Europe, but now is there time to recuperate and to re-engage? I don’t know. I’m not sure.

On the other hand, I’m not saying and I never it was never my opinion that Europe should not have done what has done for Ukraine and should not have done what has what has been very persistent to do in terms of supporting Ukraine in terms of being there for Ukraine in terms of engaging finance and weaponry for Ukraine. This had to be done.

Unfortunately, again with time we learned that we were late in doing what has been done then because if the discussions about the airspace had been going would have gone in the direction Zelensky asked since day one things would have been different. So fighting and resisting and standing for territorial integrity yes but not talking what does it mean? A war of extermination.

So, of course you know I don’t know who among you said mentioned European architect security architecture and of course yes it’s this this crisis was also an opportunity to revisit certain certainties that may be outdated in terms of how we re-engage in this continent because you know, since I was a child my grandmother made sure that I knew that the neighbors were not the result of our choice. The neighbors were who they were, and Russia is not going to go anywhere.

So it’s not okay to think that we can be in a permanent war with Russia or that we will not talk to Russia. And sometimes people say do you trust Vladimir Putin? It’s not this question. The question is what is in our interests, and we must fight for what is in our interests. And it was obvious from day one that the war in Ukraine for Putin was not simply a war against Ukraine. Was a war against Europe. Was a war to bring Europe down.

Was a war to count on the fatigue of democratic societies were you cannot lose 1.3 million soldiers like he does and enjoy popularity and enjoy silence from 1 three million families that cannot speak because otherwise they risk their own lives. Europe is a mosaic of democracies of parties of groups that have different views and of course at the end of the day Europe is also about citizens that for good or for bad, measure their morality towards a war out outside their country also with the affordability of life in their own country. 

So, the costs, you know and just for example, go to one of the many interesting things happening, I cannot understand maybe again it’s because I’m not a refined person but I cannot understand, how for example in Germany it can be a moral judgment about Angela Merkel why she preferred the cheap Russian gas. Imagine Angela Merkel in that time saying to the Germans listen there is a regime in Russia that is really very ruthless. So I propose that we don’t buy any more guns from them but we buy from Qatar, it will be more expensive but it’s more it’s morally cleaner. This would you know this would have been you know so there is there is a lot of things happening and one thing is sure and which makes me com comfortable in talking about this topic because nobody will ask Albania to solve it. And nobody can blame Albania for not solving it. So, this is the great thing to be Albania in this big family because when they go nuts it’s their fault and when there is success, we are part of a success.

About the EPC, how to say it’s it’s true it’s a format that as every French invention is complicated and it’s not me saying it General de Gaul said it even better a country with 2,000 type of cheeses is not an easy country to understand but it’s a French invention because since Abbé de Saint-Pierre’s the French saw the world saw Europe with that with the lenses of a big political community although the perpetual peace that was then taken also by a great German like Kant was based exactly in the need to make peace with Russia and with Turkey.

So with that part that at that time, you know, belonged to Turkey. So, this is a bit the sense of it and in the meantime it’s like you know the French reluctance to enlarge Europe through the European Union and to see it as a community where there are different levels, different type of partnerships and so on. But in the time we live in, it’s a good thing to do. It’s a good thing to happen. Now, it’s true. Is there a follow-up? No, there is not follow-up. And this is the problem, but in the meantime, is there potential? Yes, there is a potential to make it a more articulated community, especially when it comes to the security architecture. But again, it’s not nobody’s asking Albania how to do it. So, we we are happy to be here. We follow, we try to say what we think and that’s it. My mantra is very simple. Say what you think. Do as they say and you are good.

-Well, thank you very much, Prime Minister, for taking the time to talk to us, I’m the ambassador, and I was in Albania, and I was also posted in the region. So I just wanted to say that it is remarkable how, in the past.

I’m a Mediterranean, not a Balkan person, very Mediterranean, but it’s quite remarkable to see the acceleration in progress in the past few years if you look back 15 years ago. I mean and I want to ask other than the work that of course Albania is doing in in in reforms whether you what or what the course where there is a combination of the fact that you know there has been a change in how we negotiate with the clusters if you think that that has helped I think they you’ve mentioned the war in the Ukraine you know the impact that has had also to have to anchor the countries in the region where there is also some you know change of perceptions of member states where do you see the main element and if you foresee any obstacles you’ve been quite cautious in saying that it might be for 2027 or 28 to finish to negotiate or to talk about accession. So, where do you also see potential hurdles in the future that would not keep this very good path to joining the EU? Thank you very much.

-. Thank you, Prime Minister, for being with us and also for the compliment on the progress report. There are, of course, a number of dark shadows mentioned in the report. One of them relates to what you spoke about corruption, where it states that corruption remains a matter of real concern. So I’d be interested if you spoke about a system to fight against corruption if you could elaborate on that. And secondly, it also says that there is no dialogue with the students, and so you know as you said yourself dialogue is the way to solve problems.

So, are you not underestimating the depth of feeling in the country about environmental concerns, about the way the country is promoting development, tourism development, etc. And that maybe these people really do have a reason to complain in that way. Finally, your relations with Greece: are you happy with your relations with Greece, and are you not worried about any potential problems before accession, as we’ve seen between Croatia and Montenegro? Thank you. 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Well, first of all, there is something very important in the language of the report that I have to underline here. For the first time, the report does not talk anymore about widespread corruption but says corruption remains a concern. Fair enough, so there is real progress in that. What I mean by the system fighting corruption is that, from 1912, when Albania declared its own independence from the Ottoman Empire and started to be a state, until 5 years ago. There was never a case of an independent, powerful judge.

Some ministers were killed or hanged, but not by an independent judiciary, but by a non-democratic system. During our democratic transition, we never had an independent judiciary. So what we did, and it’s the key reform term we made was exactly to give up the grip of the political power on the power of the judiciary and I did it with my party and the sword you know I always bring the image of the of the statue of justice you know with a sword with a banded eyes and with a balance so that’s where was in my office since 1912 by constitutional changes and by legislative changes, that sword was handled to independent prosecutors and judges. 

So now the sword is looking for the big heads in political power. and of course this is not easy to deal with. It’s painful, but it’s the only way. So, what we have to do is simply to support that independent power, the new independent power and to keep going although the eyes are never fully blind and the balance is never fully balanced, but it’s part of a process.

So, this is what I mean when I say that the system is fighting corruption and there is no more protection in any shape or form for anyone who has to go in front of justice. There are of course judicial overreaching and things like that but as I said part of the process.

When it comes to Greece, I might say that we have all the reasons to have fantastic relation with Greece and u for the moment they are excellent but we are neighbors and between neighbors there’s always a potential to have some debates and then some grudges and then some ghosts come back but I hope not, I hope it will not be the case and yes we have an outstanding issue regarding the delimitation, but we have agreed to go to the international court. So, it’s something that will be solved by a third party.

When it comes to what was said about environment, listen again I think that what we are losing big time. As the democratic world is the baseline, we are getting more and more in in the middle of extremes and if some years ago the challenge was to get the center to win elections.

Today the center is becoming a Musgrave, and every election is bringing more extremes and more extremes and more extremes and even the traditional parties are being more and more you know put in front of the dilemma to work or not work with the extremes. And I see it as the result of something fundamentally evil that we are allowing. When I say we, I mean democratic world which is the replacement of freedom of speech with the freedom of reach.

So, if we go back a bit in time when the information depended from the traditional media, newspapers and In TVs, there was a very simple instrument that was guaranteeing the baseline which was factchecking. So factchecking was the filter to not allow everything to be free to reach everyone, to not allow every preposterous imagination or saying to reach everyone. So, there was no freedom of reach for shameful for disgusting for you know boring products of mind. Today freedom of reach is suppressing the freedom of speech is suppressing the truth and is practically evaporating the baseline.

So everyone has its own barricade and in their own barricade its own certainties and from that barricade, everyone else is  their target. So, violence is also being fueled by that type of reorganisation of the relations, which are not anymore relations based on respect and I speak you listen; you speak, I listen, but based on simply who is louder  and who doesn’t, who has the capacity to shut up the other. So, you mentioned dialogue with the students.

First of all, you know, students are a very appealing name to imagine you know a change but I don’t see many students in engaged in that thing. And violence is not a student’s work. And we have shown, factually that from all the people arrested in the first wave of violence, there was only one student and the rest were people with a criminal past, people who have had something to do with the criminal justice and they were masked and they were exercising violence.

So, this is very complicated very complicated in and it will become more complicated if Europe will not put a red line on social media. If Europe will not take measures to stop this unhinged freedom of reach for every nonsense possible and from every platform of hate of division of antisemitism of anti-Muslim, of anti-anti- this is how I see it and I must answer to the lady.

-You have spoken eloquently about artificial intelligence at the UN and elsewhere. And she says, “Could you elaborate on this?” And I suppose Albania captured the imagination of the world last year when you introduced an AI minister. So perhaps you could maybe talk us through some of that after you’ve answered the ambassador’s question.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, to the ambassador’s question, I would simply say that the only obstacle one can envisage now in this process is the old habits to come back because we have to be very fair and clear that what created this re-engagement of all Europe with the idea of enlargement is Vladimir Putin. Without Vladimir Putin, we would not have had such a fast ride with opening chapters and closing chapters based on our homework. But we did the homework also before and we were somehow trapped in some individual countries in domestic politics.

So, if Europe will keep going and stays loyal to its own promises which is not something that is in Europe’s DNA. It will be great otherwise we have to face the old habits again, and then it will be a different story, but I am I am tragically optimistic about this and when it comes to the to the AI. Well, I don’t know exactly what the other lady means, but I must say that for us the new technology and the AI itself have been blessings because our past is still heavy.

We don’t come from a long tradition of state. As I mentioned, our state is young. We we started to build institutions only in 1912. not very successfully, frankly. And then we had 50 years of communism, a machine that was built for totally different purposes and then it was completely dismantled and then we had to re-engage. So, there are two things without which we would not have been able to be here. One is the European Union. I always say if Iraq, Afghanistan, others would not have been able to make it, it’s because they don’t have the European Union close in the neighborhood and because they don’t have a European Union. perspective. So because to build institutions is really difficult and Europe today I don’t know how much is able to appreciate that all the advantages come from the layers that have been put before generation after generation after generation.

So you cannot invent a an independent judiciary if you don’t have a tradition and if you don’t have the European Union to be on your neck and also you don’t have a goal to be part of the European Union on the other hand is technology because you can say we want an administration that is better that is faster is more efficient but you are not German and this is a handicap when you have to have a better faster efficient administration and you need generations while with the technology you can overcome this and you like Albania have 95% of public service online so if 10 years ago to get a birth certificate you had to stay in a queue and you had maybe to pay a bribe today you get a birth certificate just for free just by a click and so many other services so AI for example, is helping us because Croatia, which excelled in the in the European negotiations, needed seven years just for transferring the body of law, the AI to its own body of law by engaging an army of translators and of drafters and lawyers.

We do it through a single person. who is our artificial intelligence minister and very fast.

So now the accuracy is stunning. We are now trying to bring to life a product that is my dream frankly to have a full AI procurement process. which would be which would be amazing if we succeeded. It’s complicated but we are working on it and would be even greater to make it a gift for some of the big countries to have a more transparent and more and more efficient procurement process. Imagine Albania making gift to Germany saying make your procurement better.

Be amazing. But until then we have to see but many things are changing. So today Albania is  number one ranking in the region for public procurement.

It’s something that some years ago would have been impossible to imagine but it’s through the technology and through a lot of changes that have come because of the European Union. So European Union plus digital and AI it’s what can make a country become a state based on institutions. And this is the blessing to be in the middle of Europe although having a very very difficult past.

-Yeah. You remind me prime minister of the comparisons between Ireland and Albania’s statehood in 1912 and 1921. We basically skipped the Industrial Revolution and went to post-industrial, as Albania has done as well.

–We were also like Albania outside of the European community. We were peripheral. We were poor. We have this extraordinary history of outward migration. But we turned a lot of that around as you rightly said partially due to our membership of the European Union. So, we wish you well

 -I have some other questions. There’s a question that asks about SPAK, the anti-corruption body that you have in Albania and describes the allegations against current and former some former senior officials in relation to misappropriation of funds. So the question is, and this direct directly relates to the enlargement process if that is going on in Albania and the question of accession is basically a question of trust because the member states in consenting to accession are basically making an act of trust with the candidate who who is being accepted.

So the question is how can you ask Europe to trust Albania’s institutions when they argue the very leadership responsible for upholding them is itself under significant scrutiny within Albania? 

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, the answer is in question exactly because everyone can be under scrutiny and the scrutiny is not influenced by anyone that that has to be scrutinized. It’s the base of trust. and on the other hand, I saw I don’t remember Ireland and it’s good that I don’t remember Ireland, but I saw whole a whole list of the European Union countries versus the perception of their own population about corruption.

And guess what? Some of the countries that are members of European Union and Western have in their own population a higher perception of corruption than the Albanians have about Albania. So, 91% in one country think the country is corrupt; the government’s corruption; everyone is corrupt. Now is it true? Of course it’s not true. But for where it comes again from evil, we are allowed to define the way we see things. It’s called social media which is deteriorating by the day. Also, the mainstream media was becoming more like social media running after everything that must be said faster and not necessarily checked properly.

So how can the whole nations of Europe think that their country is corrupt in that levels how this is dangerous. So again, when it comes to this question and to all the questions about it it’s very simple. It’s very simple. Nobody has ever pretended at least I don’t know but I think even in Ireland nobody pretend that any country any government is immune from corruption by definition that’s why there are the systems of checks balances scrutiny and that’s why time after time there are facts that come to light and show that there are punishable attitudes or punishable actions.

So, this is the point. You don’t judge a government, you don’t judge an organization, you don’t judge a country, you don’t judge a family because members of it are caught in the wrong behavior. You judge based on how this government, how this country, how this family, how this organization reacts towards the bad behavior and what has been defined for Albania for many years as a place with a culture of impunity has changed now in a place where there is no impunity anymore, are and this is a big step.

So, when and sorry but there are countries in Europe that must deal with issues of corruption in the open and so what, so they have to continue to fight and to make it better and so on and so further.

So, this is what we are doing, and this is why the European Commission is praising us and who has you you don’t remember working with European Commission in our position. I’m telling you is the most sophisticated torture you can imagine. There is no blood. There is no trace and there is no chance to blame the torturer. You are blamed all the time.

So when the Commission says this is okay, believe me, this is okay and when there are member states that say the commission has been not accurate there is something behind it it’s a domestic interest is domestic politics but the commission is accurate this is what I can say now I know that the member states blame the Commission for other reasons in the coexistence in the family this I cannot say anything because we are not yet part of the family. But so far, thanks God that we have the Commission. Otherwise, we’d have been lost completely in translation and would have been terrible. 

-As somebody who’s been reading commission enlargement documents for almost 30 years, I do sympathize with you. It is a form of torture to get through page after page.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, page after page is not torture. It’s impossible.

So that’s why we give a special bonus is for everyone in Albania that deals with the commission. So, because these people really deserve not just credit but deserve sympathy and solidarity because they are obliged to read hundreds of pages that makes James Joyce look like much more human and far more close to rational understanding. But this is it, you know.

 –You may not have seen it but there is a James Joyce Centre just across the street. I want to thank you Prime Minister for a very expansive and illuminating talk and for your willingness to answer so many questions from our colleagues here and those online. I want to wish you well with your European meetings over the next few days. I was saying a little earlier that Ireland has some sensibility about what it’s like to be small state that is peripheral to a much larger kind of entity and that subsequently uses membership of that entity to help transform the country. We can only wish you well in the accession negotiations.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: I thank you for the hospitality. I thank everyone for joining and I don’t know how useful it was, but I leave with the hope that it was not boring.

-Thank you very much.