In the course of his official visit to the United Kingdom, Prime Minister Edi Rama participated in a conversation at the Royal Institute of International affairs, Chatham House.

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-A very warm welcome to Chatham House! A very warm welcome to all of you online as well. I am very, very glad to welcome you in Chatham House, Prime Minister Edi Rama, former Mayor of Tirana, arriving as Albania is very much in discussion and there are all kind of things we can talk about and put as sub-headlines of this discussion.

The first topic of discussion when it was first raised, from the migration to Russia and China, to how Albania is responding to the geopolitical challenges of today. So this conversation will take us around to many subjects. But I wanted first to welcome you to Chatham House. Welcome!

PM Rama: Thank you

-And then to start with the UK, which is hard to avoid. You just come from Number 10 and you began today talking on “Today” program indeed about one of the ways in which Albania comes up in British conversations very much at the moment. That is migration. I wondered if you could take us into what you have been saying to Britain about this?

PM Rama: I said what I said in the Today program this morning, what I have already said previously, that this aspect of relation is not good and because of such disgraceful rhetoric our relations went to a lowest point in my memory. This is not something that honors Great Britain.

– So this figure of 12,000 in 2022 through small boats, you’re saying this figures is not, it’s not right coming directly from Albania and this amazing figure hang over it all from Eurostat that this was one percent 1% of Albania’s working age men are heading this way.

PM Rama: What does this mean? These are speculations of all sorts. The thing is that there is a clear understanding that Britain is in trouble and in Britain there are a lot of opportunities, there are a lot of demands for workforce and there are new avenues for hopes and dreams of these people and this is simple and clear.

– One of the interesting things we were discussing just before this conversation was people may be coming from, some people coming from Albania here because of construction and there aren’t construction workers in as many since Brexit, but also that the government here has changed the rules to allow legal migration for things like construction and it seems to be is it part of the argument you have been making to parliament?

PM Rama: This is not for me to decide, but I simply, I don’t understand such a policy of close borders at all, the policy of fighting against people that come and so on, because it’s something that it’s going against the economic basic needs and I don’t how Brits and British youngsters will do the jobs that are done by others, Albanians included. But this is not for me to question it.

-But I am wondering whether you are expecting more legal migration, because routes are being opened to that.

PM Rama: This is something this is something that is up to the British government. What I see and what we live with in Albania and the region is that it’s a very ruthless competition among even very developed countries, Germany first and foremost, to suck our human capital, because everywhere the need for more workforce is more and more alarming, while the demographics go down and while the industries need workforce and so we are facing something that is going to be more and more dramatic in terms of human capital.

– I was going to ask you about that about the impact at home, because Albania has been going through remarkable economic growth transformation.

PM Edi Rama: Yes, remarkable but not as remarkable as to make Tirana London or to make Kukes, I don’t know, a Berlin-like city. This won’t be the case for, I don’t know how long. So you can’t stop young people that live in remote areas, that with all the things they miss they don’t miss the iPhone and then they don’t miss the TikTok and they don’t miss Kim Kardashian to go where Kim Kardashian made success. So this is the attraction of places and of countries that offer something to the imagination that nobody can beat.

 So then it’s another thing how many people realize it and how many people struggle and how many people come back, because what we are facing is also an increase of the coming back. It is still a very negative ratio between those who leave and those who come back, but the coming back in 2022 was 25 %. So 25 % is the number of the people who have come back and this is something good, because people who come back after having emigrated, they come back with another mindset, they come back with another experience. Even those who go to Germany and come back home just six months later they develop a different mindset, because they have made their mind.

– I am interested in what argument you make at home as Prime Minister of Albania. Look Albania has a bright future.

PM Edi Rama: Albania has a bright future. Listen, I know that it’s not politically correct for me to say what I say, but I never say to people “listen, you have to stay here, you have not to go, because here is your country. No. Young people have the right to make their own choices. Some choose to stay, some others decide to leave, some choose to come back, some choose to leave and come back again. This is the challenge.

We have to make possible that every day becomes better, but we can’t promise miracles and, at the same time, miracles when it comes to developing a country, which has been the North Korea of Europe until 30 years ago, it needs time, it needs strength, it takes a lot of patience, because it is about building the state, building the institutions. So it is about history. Our history has not been so generous to us, because we had to live under various empires. We have also a big problem, as we are loyal to the empires, generally speaking. So we don’t betray easily. We actually don’t betray at all.

– I was going to ask you about that and indeed your hopes of joining the EU.

PM Edi Rama: Be sure about that!

-I am not going to describe the EU as an empire!

PM Edi Rama: And if Russians occupy Great Britain, you can come to us and we would protect you from Putin and from Suella Braverman. This is for sure. You would see it for yourselves. We would protect you.

– There are so many-sided events. I do want to ask you about your hopes of joining the European Union. Where you think those hopes are?

PM Edi Rama: What? Joining the European Union? Are you asking me what I think about joining the EU? You are asking me to look at the crystal ball?

-No, just the future.

PM Edi Rama: Predicting the future is something impossible, because even the EU itself doesn’t know about it and nobody does. We don’t know it either. But, listen, the simplest part of it and the toughest for us is that we have to do our homework. It is as simple as that. Are people here at Chatham House filming? Because I have to understand…

– Chatham House is filming here. This is live.

PM Rama: It is Chatam House, but it is open to the public. So what I am saying is now public?

-Yes. I still want to stick on this point. It is not predicting the future, but it is about…we made a point about homework needed.

PM Edi Rama: Yes, we have to make our homework, not because we want to please Paris, Berlin or Brussels, but because this homework is fundamental to make Albania a modern and functioning democracy, with institutions that work for the people, work for the national interest, work for Albania in the international stage. And this means to have the separation of powers in place through deeds and not only through words and to have a totally independent, but also professional justice system and to have all the rest that is well-defined and that corresponds to 4000 and some hundreds of laws and bylaws that we have to adopt. And this will make Albania a modern functioning democracy. Will this make Albania also a member state? I don’t know. Who knows what the European Union would do in the future!

We have seen an European Union that has been absolutely hypocritical  with us, because we have done our homework, but this was not enough, because they had their own internal problems and the European Union is – I don’t want to sound like a Brexit fan, because I am not – but the EU is a federation of egos that sometimes do not correspond with each other. There are 27 national elections, 27 local elections, 27 European elections, 27 I don’t know what, and all these do not take place on the same day. And we learned to read the European Union. How? By looking at the elections. So, it doesn’t matter that we did our homework, it doesn’t matter that the European Commission, which is in place exactly to asses technically and not politically, objectively and not subjectively, how much this state has done its job, to say “yes, they have done their job  and therefore they deserve to have their accession talks opened.”

Finally we got to the point where all the EU member states agreed and we had our accession talks opened. The war in Ukraine has brought the European Union to senses in terms of the geopolitics.

-In what way?

PM Rama: They keep saying and highlighting the geopolitics, but when it comes to concrete terms they indeed failed to make a timely geopolitical decision, exactly because of what I already said. Now it is different. They are now more awake and understand they cannot let the Balkans out of the overall design. But how long this would take and how things would change, this is something we don’t know. What we pray for is that the European Union stays there until we fulfil the homework and then they can dissolve. It is their problem.

We want to be a state that is a functioning modern democracy for our future generations and this is something we can do by putting all our efforts and by having the EU on our side,  because you can’t do this without the European Union. You can’t invent this. It is a know-how that has been built over many years. These are tools you can’t invent and all the lack of tradition, I already mentioned, which is not just us, but it is also the whole Balkans, can be replaced only by this know-how and this is why the European Union is so precious.

PM Edi Rama: No, the problem is that we are more concerned about the European Union than they are concerned about us, and rightly so because they really, I think they really need to be taken care in the sense that European Union need to be taken care of very much, because it’s a very defining moment in the history of the democratic family and the European Union needs to be strong enough and to be clear enough and to be resilient. And all this so then it’s important, it’s good that the Balkans also are taken care, but the Balkans are used to survive. So we are not spoiled to the point that we can lose it. We survive. Do you understand?

-Ecotourism is on the rise in Albania and the Vjora River has just been announced as Europe’s first Wild River National Park. But that announcement came off the back of years-long campaigns from international and local organizations and the threat of environmental damage still persists with the Vlora airport which is under construction, Durres Harbour is being developed by an Abu Dhabi company. What steps are you taking to ensure that Albania’s unique and rich biodiversity, which is so key to its eco-tourist credentials, isn’t sacrificed for short-term economic gain and harmful infrastructure development?

PM Edi Rama: First of all, it is the first national park on a wild river, because it is the last wild river. There’s no other one. Europe was full of wild rivers, but all the guys that pushed us to keep it wild, they have tamped their wild rivers. So all the tigers of water in Europe became house cats and for well-being of the developed countries, and they wanted our wild river to remain a tiger, which is a good thing.

Secondly, you speak about protests, but you have to consult our program when we got elected. We already indicated that we wanted to put Vjosa under protection. And Vjosa was already protected. It was a protected river, not as a national park, but is a protected area, which is a lower category of protection. We were very aware of it and our government has significantly increased the surface of the protected areas. We have conducted a very thorough assessment, because it’s a national park that crosses whole country and it includes a huge number of people living and that’s inside even cities that are part of this National Park and their lives depend on this park. So we had to be very clear. First, this National Park had to become a reality, and second we had to make sure that declaring it as such shouldn’t become an impediment to development of economy. So, the idea was to transform this into an economy, without harming nature. And the last point is that in this area we inherited concessions and agreements and many contract. And it’s easy to say from afar that this looks so beautiful. Let’s make it a park and “don’t spoil it you dirty politicians”, because we need our new generation, we need a new world clean and green, but then this can cost the country to the point that can bring the country to its knees. So we had to do all these things. And, yes, we have finally decided and now Vjosa is the last wild river in Europe and the first national park in a wild river. As such, this is a major achievement and the challenge we face now is to ensure its sustainability and make it irreversible. Again this is easier said than done, but that’s why we have separate tasks. You say something, I deliver.

-It’s interesting you were concerned about this event being aired in public. Several outlets in Albania have told my news organization that press freedoms are declining in Albania. Journalists are banned from asking tough questions at press conferences and big TV Outlets have been fined heavily and when BIRN asked for detailed reasons, the government response was that the question was too technical. Isn’t press freedom essential for a functioning democracy? Would comment on that, please?

PM Edi Rama: There is a stereotype. If you are a journalist you can say all the bullshit you want. It’s freedom. If you’re a politician and you say everything you want, you are suspicious. Now I don’t accept from anyone moral superiority, when it comes to any subject. I don’t see any moral superiority acceptable. I have my answers, you have your questions; you have our opinion, I have mines, but claiming that the freedom of media is to say everything it comes to your mind and utter every possible allegation and then to say this is just bullshit, is the lack of understanding of freedom, I don’t buy it. I don’t by it. Okay?

Now you are saying something which is a lie, claiming that the media outlets are fined in Albania. Give me an example. Media owners that are also owners of companies that make tax evasion and that are referred to the prosecution under clear tax evasion evidence or media owners that fail to pay rents to public facilities over the years and that are in courts with the government to me are two different things. It’s too easy to say. You are you won’t me to pay the rent, because I am critic you want me to pay the taxes, because I’m critic. You want me to pay social insurance to the employees, because I am critic. But the facts are completely different. You have to pay the social contributions that you don’t. You have to pay taxes that you don’t. You have to pay rent that you don’t. You have to build legally that you don’t. So, I am sorry but you have to respond just like every other citizen. You don’t have immunity in the name of freedom so that you can do everything else behind your screen, while what you do on the screen is your job.

We have never ever fined a media although we should. Why? Because there is a big problem with the payment of the journalists’ wages. I would invite you to look into the current wages of the journalists and be a bit more preoccupied about them, because they are underpaid and they are paying a lot in cash and so on and so forth.

So there is a big problem about this mix between freedom of the media and freedom to not abide by the law in the name of being owner of a media. This is not going to pass and you can say whatever you want. This is not going to pass you can say whatever you want. This is not going to pass and it has been tolerated for a long time and it has been wrong and it will not happen.

And this thing that journalists are not allowed to ask tough questions is again completely not true. It is totally untrue. Journalists can ask whatever question you want. They can be who however they want. It’s not this. It’s very clear. The last I have to say is that I have risked my own life for the freedom of speech. I have still scares on my head. So I don’t accept moral superiority and lectures from anyone that has a pen and calls himself a journalist. Then we have different views, we have different rules. But the idea that you are the Prime Minister and you should not have your view and the journalists can have every view and you should not say what you think, this is not something I buy. Maybe I’m wrong, and for sure I’m wrong, for sure you are right, but this is how it is so you write whatever you want, you have the pen and you can write, but when you talk to me and when I talk to you, don’t pretend that I buy all the bullshit you want to say. I can’t. It is as simple as that.

-I wanted to ask you about the powerful speech you delivered to the Council of Europe back in October in relation to Kosova. It reminded me of a period where speeches and discourse had a much bigger impact than they have today, where Albania is being used as “a political scapegoat”. Do you believe that the speech delivered the results you expected? And knowing what you know now about the repercussions would you do it again?

PM Rama: Repercussions of what?

– Political repercussions about the speech.

PM Rama: What repercussions?

– The way it was received by the international media.

PM Rama: I don’t care. The truth is more important than what people may think about it in a moment. You say it because it was a very uncomfortable. Truth it’s a whole setup and some people, certain authorities, some colleagues of mine refuse to see it, the fact that it has nothing to do with the court case. It has to do with a part of it. It is indeed the original sin that brought it, by the way, but this is the truth. It is a Russian setup. This is clear. And chapeau to the Russians that still their setup works and all the European democratic community is working on the Russian setup. This is the truth, because otherwise someone has to tell me where are the organs that have been taken out of the bodies and have been supposedly trafficked in the West. Where are they? There is no evidence of whatsoever about any kind of such activity. And this report is a disgrace for the Council of Europe this report is a shame for the European community of countries that are part of the European Council. This is the Council of Europe. This is the truth. What kind of repercussions? This is the truth and I am sure that the truth will come out. The truth will come out soon and I very much hope that Zelensky will not end in jail one day, because with that logic and Slobodan Milosevic, who was declared war criminal and an arrest warrant had been issued against him – if I am not mistaken –whereas Hashim Thaçi was baptized as George Washington of Kosova. So, in other words he was Kosova’s Zelensky back then, but he is jail now. I very much wish Zelensky won’t end up in jail one day under war crime charges, if we are to follow such logic. So, raising war crime charges against someone that has led a rebellion against an aggressor that sought to enforce an ethnic cleansing policy, as if he was the commander of an organized state, this is absurd.

But underneath it is more terrifying that there is the allegation of human organ trafficking, based on some stories in Albania, a supposed yellow house here and there. There is no such a yellow house, there is no such a thing, still there is a report, suggesting that “local villagers denied of having seen such a thing, because they were allegedly either under drugs or they were offered prostitutes.” So, according to the report, local villagers were supposedly offered sex in exchange of their silence in order to cover human trafficking. Unfortunately it was considered as something true. And I don’t regret it. I would do it again and again as I am already doing it here, in any occasion. It is a disgrace!