Conversation at the Atlantic Council in Washington D.C:
Host: The depth of support of Albanians for the relationships with the United States is pretty remarkable. Politics in Albania are as divisive as you might see politics in Washington right now and yet the one thing on all Albanians agree dramatically on is the alliance with the United States. Your country has been a remarkable ally across the political spectrum in your country, so let me start with that. You are here in Washington. You are here at a critical time, as it was outlined, and it is about the EU process. You have met with the Secretary Pompeo, you have been at the White House with the National Security Adviser, you have met with the head of the World Bank, the head of USAID. Give us a sense of what your priorities for this relationship are right now?
Prime Minister Rama: First of all, to set the records straight, Washington has surpassed us in divisiveness. So, we are not alone anymore in that.
But, yes it was a very intense day of meetings and being here as a Prime Minister is an honour and it is absolutely a pleasure. Concluding the whole day by being hosted in this place adds to the honour and the pleasure, so thank you for that. I would say that in this precise moment in time we have not only a lot to exchange in terms of our bilateral relations, but also in terms of very common challenges, with one of them being Iran and you know very well that we have an issue with this country and its regime. Of course, at the same time we are very aware of the fact that while we have taken a certain risk by joining a common operation with the United States to save people whose lives were threatened, and at the same time it is very comforting that we are not alone in that.
Host: You are referring to Albania’s hosting members of the MEK, who have been settled in Albania, and perhaps ambassador Dan Fried has to do with this.
PM Rama: Yes, it is true.  Washington has to do with this. It is not only this, but also the region. And we know very well that the Western Balkans today are a better place, first and foremost thanks to the United States and its Allies. And the incredible transformation of our area from an area of hostilities and long chapters of conflicts and bloodshed into an area of peace and corporation. Btu of course we are not yet where we can and should be, because there are still issues and problems that need to be solved and we very much count on the help of our American partners and friends. And as a nation, as an Albanian nation, as Albanians live not only in Albania but in all Western Balkan countries, we are absolutely in a better place. If one would try to go back to the last 30 years and try imagine how the course of our history could have been without the United States of America, it is impossible. It is impossible to imagine that we could be where we are today.
Host: Mr. Prime Minister, the last time you were on our stage here in 2016, things looked a little bit different. There is a lot of concern today, certainly concerning the EU and the political challenges in the region. But, when you were here few years ago, the outlook for the region was very different. Skopje and Athens were at an impasse, there was not a real movement in the conversation between Pristina and Belgrade, Montenegro was not in NATO and you were years’ way from opening the conversations with the EU. So there is a lot of concern about the moment you are in today but with a little bit of prospective when you were the last time on stage yow can see some progress. As you as Prime Minister look out across your country and the region, what do you see as the biggest trends? Are they going in the wrong way or in the right way? Because there is a level of concern here with some prospective you see progress made.  How do you view it?
PM Rama: First of all, it looks like we still have to deal with a certain curse that has characterized our life because when the EU was in a very good shape, we were the very bad guys. Now that we are OK guys, may be not very good guys, they are in a terrible shape. So, we have to wait for the moment when we are good guys but they are also in a good shape. It doesn’t seem to be the moment. Anyhow, there is some progress and there is some good progress made because of this so-called new methodology. Friends brought up certain issues, I think with some very good points, because even we might have had it easier without them and without these points,  but still it is very good that there is a discussion on improving the methodology and making it fairer and more predictable for everyone, because it was increasingly becoming a frightening nightmare and more schizophrenic between the Commission that always followed by letter the homework each country had to made and the Council that started to be more and more hostage to the political agendas and to the inner dynamics in different countries. So, all the now they are no more 28 members, but 27 and they are still a lot to agree on one decision.
In the meantime, for us, Albania, you mentioned with a certain suspicious smile that we are may be by far the only country in Europe with 95 percent of the people desiring to be part of the European Union. And your smile was a bit like “what’s the problem with you guys?” And in times when the Brits left, but Europe is for Albanians is much more than what it is for other countries, because we have had a difficult life by being kept hostage to empires that we didn’t choose. And this is, not really an empire, but the first place we wanted to be since long time and being there is like escaping forever the curse of history and being forever saved somewhere where we can decide for ourselves. This is the ideal vision. Of course, it is a bit like the marriage. You need to get married in order to then understand that it is not that what you thought about. Still, the fact that people divorce doesn’t make you give up when you want to get married.
Host: So, despite the visions between the EU members themselves about the future of the Union, despite Brexit, you still see for Albania the EU accession process is the way out of this curse of history.

PM Rama: Not only for Albania, but for whole Western Balkans, this is the only way and there is no other alternative, because, as I said, we have never been able to choose. Now, over the past three decades, we are fighting to make our choice become a reality. And this is all for a simple reason, since there is no other place in our continent where we can and should at the same time be feel free and live in a decent society and in a functioning state of democracy.
Host: As many of your compatriots last fall were, I dare say, angry at the decision of the President Macron, who really opposed opening the accession talks. And you went on public pretty quickly to say that President Macron’s ideas were a breath of fresh air, I quote you on that. Now you think it was geopolitically wrong. What did you mean by the breath of fresh air and how your conversations with the French and Paris through this process are now?
PM Rama: It is true that prior to the physical earthquake we had this psychological earthquake. So, the decision of non-taking a decision to get us start the accession talks was perceived very, very badly. Because, first of all, we deserve it and we did everything that a country like us had to do in order to open the accession talks. Secondly, no other country before – and I am talking facts and I am not giving an opinion – none of the countries before opening the accession talks – I mean countries that today are negotiating or others that have already joined the EU – did as much as we have done to open the accession talks. Not because we are better than any of them, but because the process became increasingly demanding and because the demands from the next country in the row became more and more peculiar, so to say. So, of course we have problems. Of course we have problems with crime. Of course we have problems with corruption, of course we have problems with having more transparent and more well-performing institutions and so on. But if we would not have had these problems, we would have asked to become (EU) members today. So, these are problems that today are less than they were some years ago and in order for us to fight and solve them to the extent that the member states have solved them, we need the accession talks. It is not like just pretending to have a gift or a present, but pretending to get the knowhow transfer on how to move on through a roadmap that is very well-consolidated and it helps us to build all the mechanisms of a functioning EU member state. I will give you an example, the justice reform. We have heard about justice reforms many times over the past 30 years, but we never had a justice reform in place. The justice reform we are implementing now is a real one and it has been possible and it is possible only because of the strong support from your country here, the United States, and of the support and the knowhow from the European Union. So, the European Union is not only a very strong incentive in our imagination and efforts, but it is also a knowhow base.
But, at the same time, what I always said about the French is “listen, it is not about us.” And, as a matter of fact, what is happening in these days, makes it very clear, it is not about us, but it is about them deciding all together what do they want for themselves and the enlargement process. Of course, they have a certain level of hypocrisy, because it would have been much more natural, fairer and much more acceptable for them to say: “Listen, you have done your homework, but we are not ready to start talking about this now, because we have some problems to solve first. And in that, I have to say, French President has been the most straightforward, because it is always easy to find ways and reasons to say to a country like Albania, or North Macedonia, or every other country in the region, “no, no, no. You are not ready yet, because we have some bad guys here, we have some bad practices there, which of course are true, but we are not talking becoming members, we are talking about opening the accession talks. And to open the accession talks we were given in paper, in written form, what we should do and the Commission has certified that we have done it. Now, I don’t think they have in Paris, Berlin, The Hague, or anywhere else in Europe, employed 24/7 to monitor Albania, while the Commission does. The Commission has employed people who deal with Albania all the time and they talk about facts, they talk about what is written on the papers, whereas the others talk what it may be written on the newspapers. So, this makes the difference and we have to live with that.
Host: We just heard Fred saying the Commission’s paper came out today. Do you see the roadmap that would allow for the process recommence in Zagreb Summit in May under the Croatian Presidency, or even before that?
PM Rama: Don’t ask me that. I would never ever say again this may happen in this station or in that station. I have said enough, I have been disappointed enough and I don’t want any more to say when this may happen, because you may never know with all these guys. It is not one person, or one organization alone, but 27 head of states who have 27 types of elections, 27 types of problems. You never know what will happen to someone who then may go like “no, no, no, we are not ready for these guys.”
But of course the process is on the right track and most importantly we are continuing to do our work, just like we would have been doing if the accession talks would have been open. Albania in itself is not losing time, is not sitting and waiting for some miracle to happen. And may be, the nice part of this would be that it would happen right when we will not be expecting for it to happen anymore in the near future.
Host: You mentioned the difference between the perception and the reality what Albania is today. If you listen to the debate played out in the French parliament, Dutch parliament, even in the Bundestag, there are concerns about crime, corruption, the rule of law issues and you mentioned the extraordinary judicial reform you are going through, but you also just have started a big offensive on some of this crime and corruption issues. So, what is your view about this set of concerns you can hear from parliaments across Europe about the issue of crime and corruption?
PM Rama: When these people in their parliaments speak about us, they don’t have us in mind, but their voters. And not only that, but many of them have in mind not what information their voters should be given, but what their voters want to hear.
I have had an experience with the member of a parliament, who was the rapporteur on Albania – and I am not mentioning the country but everyone can guess – who asked me, how do you think Mr. Prime Minister that the Sharia law will coexist with the EU acquis?
I asked him: “Are you looking forward to opening the accession talks with the Saudis, or some other country in the Middle East?” “No, no. You have the Sharia law since you are a Muslim country.”
No sir, we don’t have the Sharia law. We never had it and I don’t know why you are saying this.
And although I told everything about it, following the visit to Albania he wrote an op-ed about the Sharia law as an impediment to open the accession talks with Albania. And this guy is a rapporteur. There a lot of such things that make it difficult for the governments, for the prime ministers, for the foreign ministers who need the votes of these guys, need to have the majorities, need to go on in their own country, need to deal with voters and elections. So, it is not the best time in Europe, it is not the best time within the European Union, but I very much hope that with the new Commission and the fresh air coming has something which makes it more geopolitical and more political, although it can make it even more difficult than it is now in the process. But for us, it is important for the process to start because the knowhow and the roadmap and the next steps are much more important than the arrival itself. So, the journey is much more beneficial to the country than the date of arrival. Without this journey, our countries cannot really stand for a long time on the right path.
Host: We talked about the American politics and it is not a secret that across the Western democracies something is happening and there is a bit of populist crash both in Europe and the United States. But, 2019 began with anti-government protests in Serbia, Montenegro and Albania and we saw in each of these countries across the region a failure to reach a sort of an accommodation agreement between the governments and the opposition. There were boycotts of the parliament, boycotts of elections and you had this problem with the Democratic Party of Albania. What is happening to the state of democracy in the Western Balkans and in Albania?  How do you have democracies and institutions function when you got the oppositions opting out?
PM Rama: We have talked a lot during all these decades about how much harm communism did to our countries. And it has always been about what happened in the past. But there is a lot happening in the present that has to do with that past and one of the most harmful points is that we grew up in a society where the other didn’t exist, where the opponent didn’t exist. It was only us and them, the enemy. So, the culture contradicting the other, without necessarily being killed, has yet to be built. So the whole process of entering into a normal democracy, so to say, is a process of understanding that, at the end, the quality of the democratic life, just like the quality of living in a family, doesn’t depend on how much you agree with each other, but on the way you disagree with each other. So, if you disagree in a gracious way then life is good, but if you disagree in a crazy way, then life is bad. In that sense, we are still growing and we are not yet there. So, it needs time and experience to get there and I don’t necessarily see it as a problem, but as a natural shortcoming in a the process of growing up. And frankly, I think we went through a very difficult moment, because boycott became a tradition in the Balkans. Every one of us made boycott. It became natural, it became normal. I hope it will not be the case in U.S. in some years, but we never experienced the elections boycott. So this was new and this had to be refused and this couldn’t be a matter of negotiation. I can say that this is very unlikely for any other party to do the same. So, I think it is now over with the boycotts since everyone understood at the end you don’t win. At the end, it can be more a self-destruction thing, which of course harms the country too, but it brings you nothing. So it is a process of getting more mature.
In Montenegro it is a different story, because it is not about parties that have same agenda as we do. For example, we have no anti-NATO, anti-EU or anti-free market parties. We had the most brutal communist dictatorship and we are the only country in the former Eastern Europe that never had a communist party. Actually there is a communist party that represents 0-point percent, just like the rivals of your President in Iowa. It is quite different in Montenegro. They have opposition towards the NATO, opposition towards major strategic goals.
Host: I want to bring up some of these strategic issues, but first I would still stay in the regional issues.  Despite some of those divisions that cut across the region, we have seen you with President Vucic, Prime Minister Zaev. You have met now three times to talk about accelerating regional cooperation, economic integration, the Mini-Schengen, and you have been pretty outspoken that there is some more concern whether this is an alternative to the EU membership or something. And you have said this is not a new Yugoslavia, it is not a Serbian economic conquest of the region, but a historic necessity. What do you mean by that and where do you see this going?
PM Rama: In this moment I am the perfect traitor, at least in the imagination of people, who do not understand that you cannot build peace and prosperity with the same instruments and weapons you fought for freedom. It is impossible. So, what we are trying to do and what I think we should and continue to do – and we had today conversations about it yesterday at the White House and today with the Secretary of State about the fact how important is to push this regional Schengen forward. I don’t know why they call it Mini-Schengen, because by definition I don’t like anything mini given that I am max, but it is a regional Schengen, so called to underline that it is a project implementing the four freedoms of EU in our region; the freedom of movement of people, freedom of movement of goods, capital and services. I will give you just one figure and it is not mine, but a figure included in a World Bank report in support of the Berlin Process. The time people and goods have to wait in every border crossing in the Balkans in a year is estimated more than a thousand years. So, what do you have to think? How one cannot understand that cutting this waiting time, letting goods and people move faster is good for everyone?
Secondly, interestingly enough, Ambassador Grenell pushed for a decision to reinstall the flights between Pristina and Belgrade. Everyone in Pristina applauded the deal. I applauded it too. But if I would have said it, not done it, maybe I would have not been here today. I would have been beheaded. So, it is also a lot of mindset that need to change. We need to understand this is not an alternative to the EU. This is just doing among each other something we cannot do yet with the EU member states. This is at the same time a kind of preparation to be good EU members. I noticed something interesting in the new enlargement methodology, which is not currently part of the EU integration and which has to do with the neighbourhood, the regional cooperation and the good neighbourly behaviour. So, this is very important. We can’t go anywhere if we stay isolated in our small markets and if we continue to see each other through what has happened in the past.
Of course, this won’t absolutely be a substitute or undermining to the dialogue between Pristina and Belgrade, which certainly has to go on and this has nothing to do with my opinion and my position on that, because since the day one and on I say that Serbia should recognize Kosovo as soon as possible. For Serbia it is a nightmare it should get rid of. Kosovo is a reality that cannot be changed. But at the same time, we need to work together. We need to find out what and where we can work together. Of course, we may not agree on that, but this is not a reason to freeze everything and turn the back to each other, because it doesn’t help anyone. You have a conflict, a big conflict today in Ukraine, but the President of Ukraine sits with the President of Russia and they talk about ways how to take steps forward. They are at war there. How one can avoid talking?!
Host: I believe this is an important message. You are here in Washington the week that Kosovo got a new government in place. Albin Kurti became your counterpart, the Prime Minister of Kosovo. Some have been nervous that the Self-determination party in the past has spoken about the desire to join with Albania. How do you see this new government in Kosovo managing these issues, being able to manage the dialogue with Belgrade?
PM Edi Rama: The poetry of the opposition is not the same with the prose of the government. But this is not the point. The point is that it is good that they have a new government in place and first of all I look forward to start working with them on our relation and there is one topic that has always been my dream and the dream of every Albanian bot in Albania and Kosovo for the border to become totally fluid. Why this has not been possible? Because any time we mentioned it, not in Belgrade, but here in Washington and Brussels too, people said: “Are you crazy? This is greater Albania!” They would certainly say it in Belgrade. Now we have this agreement that borders can be totally open. There are also people who say: “Do you think we have to ask Serbs about our own border?” What is this? This is to fool people, because, yes you need a common agreement and then you can reach such an agreement with anyone. After having convinced – and the funny and the sad thing is that after having convinced the Serbs and the President of Serbia to give up on the movement of people, because they wanted only goods, the capital and services and not the people, because for them it was an obsession: If we are to accept the movement of people then Albanians will open their border and would be the greater Albania. Which is not true. There will be two states, just like there will be six states in the Western Balkans, but they will have normal communication, just like in the European Union. So, this would allow Albanians to move among each other totally free. This is actually something I think we can sort out, because when you are in government it is very much different. We can now work together and I hope sooner rather than later we will clarify on all these distortions about this regional Schengen and we can move forward with our own borders.
There is also something else. It is not a little EU in the sense that the six should have consensus and everyone should do the same thing. No, there is no veto, there is no prejudice, there is no conditionality. So, everyone can do parts of it as it pleases. It is not that if we reach an agreement with Kosovo and Kosovo with us then Kosovo should do the same with Serbia. No. Montenegro is part of the initiative and say we like most of it, but there are also things we are not interested in, but because it is exactly so flexible, they don’t need to do everything at the same pace.
Question: Lately there has been a normative act in Albania, a serious act by the Albanian government to combat corruption and organized crime. It has started its work and it has also been commended. I wanted to ask, since you have been in the government for six years now and this issue is clearly so important that you had to take this normative act. Do you feel some sort of responsibility why it has not been done before? And just to follow-up, you have been very strong lately with this act, and other actions against crime and corruption, but in the past towards people in your own party that have been accused of links to the organized crime you have been either slow to respond, or you haven’t responded at all.
Question: Mr. Prime Minister I wanted to ask you a question about the role of the OSCE Chairmanship which Albania holds and particularly with respect to Ukraine, because as you acknowledged in the opening speech at the opening session for the Albanian Chairmanship you mentioned that it is probably the most important issue the OSCE confronts. You made a trip to Ukraine as your first act as the OSCE Chair. The OSCE plays a very vital role with the special Monitoring Mission and the Trilateral Group. But I wonder what is your sense, having recently been to Ukraine, about the situation there and the prospects for a genuine ceasefire and, beyond that, for a legitimate peace?
Question: Thank you Prime Minister.  You haven’t made much reference to your economic agenda. I am wondering if you can take a moment and summarize your priorities here, particularly your aspirations for closer U.S.-Albania economic collaboration.
PM Rama: I didn’t make reference to the economic agenda, because I wasn’t asked. And normally people like to ask about politics and not about the economy, which is good for politicians.