Prime Minister Edi Rama at one of the high-level sessions of the Paris Peace Forum, an initiative of French President Emmanuel Macron. This year as well, important personalities from around the world have gathered to promote dialogue and global cooperation.

***`

So, good afternoon, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this, first level session of the Paris Peace Forum. I am Gilles Gressani, editor and co-founder of Le Grand Continent, and I am delighted and thrilled to be with you today to moderate the conversation with the Prime Minister of the Republic of Albania, Edi Rama, on diplomacy in a divided world, regional leadership, and the future of multilateralism.

So, Mr. Prime Minister, welcome. Now, of course, you hardly need an introduction, so let me just say three very quick facts.

First, as you know, Prime Minister Rama is one of the most consequential leaders of our continent. He’s been Prime Minister of Albania since 2013 and has just been re-elected for a new term in May.

Second, and this might be less well known, Mr. Rama studied and taught here in Paris at Beaux-Arts.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: This is fake news.

Fake news. Can you just elaborate on that?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, I didn’t study here. I came here with a fellowship in the Cité des Arts. It’s still quite good. It’s like U.S. and China. They are two countries, but they are different.

Yeah, but they can meet and talk. And finally, since we are here at the Paris Peace Forum, I think it is important for us to acknowledge that you, Mr. Prime Minister, have just resolved a long-standing conflict with your historic rival, signing a peace treaty and bringing the infamous Azerbaijan-Armenia war to an end. So thank you for this.

Prime Minister Edi Rama:  You wanted to say Azerbaijan-Albania, eh?

Yes.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Because you said Armenia. And you’ll make your president angry, not me. Because he tried for so long, but he couldn’t.

So, with that, let’s try to dive into our conversation. The first question, Mr. Prime Minister, is how do you sense, how do you see this disruption happening? From your perspective, what’s really changing in the global order?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, I am just coming right away from Riyadh, where I had the honor to be invited by the FII, the Future Investment Initiative, an amazing set, not just because of the unusual amount of people, 7,000 participants, but because of what they represented in the global affairs especially when it comes to business and when it comes to innovation and technology, and when you have the possibility to be in that part of the world, then you realize that we, in this part of the world, need to go for a shower of humility. Because today, although the world is now exposed completely to the boiling point of the global economy, we are in the waters of the relations between countries and of approaches between fundamental things.

We continue to think that something is wrong with the world and that it’s just a moment in time and things will come back as they were because we, I mean, when I say we, it’s not Albania, I mean the West, and especially Europe, have a moral legitimacy that gives us, by some divine decree, the possibility to judge the others and to believe that we are the point of reference of how the world should be. And this is fundamentally wrong.

-What do you mean by wrong? Is this not effective?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: It’s wrong. It’s totally wrong. It’s not true. And it’s self-indulgence that has, in my very humble point of view, started to become more harmful and less and less helpful even for the confidence that, of course, we all need.

So, I believe that what happened in the United States in the beginning of this year, and I’m talking about what Donald Trump described as the precise plan of God to save him, to save America, is wrong.

America is, in my view, something that if God had really a plan, part of that plan is also to wake up Europe. And I don’t see Europe waking up in the way that it should. There is a wake-up, if we may call it like that, in a lot of efforts done by the President of the Commission, by the leaders that are trying to bring things forward, and by the pushing so much in changing the attitude towards the idea of defense. But this is, in my view, again, something very fragmented and it’s far from enough and it may become dangerous in the mid-run.

-What do you mean by dangerous?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Dangerous in the sense that to me it is quite unsettling that still today after what happened all these years with the European Union diplomacy and foreign policy outsource to Washington and with the European Union being in the United States autopilot, there is not yet a European peace plan. And it’s just a binary approach towards the conflict that has amazing potential to degenerate in something catastrophic. While I don’t oppose that part, I feel very, very worried about the other part that is missing: diplomacy and peace planning.

Whatever it might be, however it might look, but in parallel with fighting the war and supporting Ukraine, and rightly so, European Union should have its own plan of peace and should have its own direct communication with Russia and with whomever else is in the middle or on the other side.

 -But do you think Russia wants peace?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: It’s not about what Russia wants. Did Hamas want peace? Does Hamas ever want peace? I don’t believe for a second that this may be true. But if we want to fight and to survive in the name of what we represent, we must do what we have to do. It’s about what we want. It’s not about what the other wants. And it’s about us trying everything that we want in the name of all what we represent with the chance that the other maybe will never respond. But you must do what you have to do.

You cannot refuse to think about peace because the other one is such an evil that he may not want. He may not want. I don’t know if he wants to. I mean Putin. But I know one thing, that by doing what we are doing, we are becoming more irrelevant every day.

-So, let me understand clearly what you’re saying, because you’re basically saying that you don’t know if Putin wants peace or war? Nowadays?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: If Putin wants war, it’s obvious every day.

-Okay. So, in that case, how can we do diplomacy without forcing him to engage in a diplomatic way?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: But diplomacy is something you do every day. So again, taking the example of Israel and Hamas, they killed each other in shapes and forms that were extreme, but they were talking every day. They were talking. They had the channel, and they were negotiating every day. In my view, until the President of the United States weighed in and opened the path for talks, now, I am not a historian, and I assume my ignorance, but I believe that this is the first ever big conflict with no back channel, with no discussion. And when you think about how much nuclear power is involved in this conflict, not talking but just fighting, it looks like a war of extermination.     I don’t think that Russia will go away from where it is. It was there, it is there, it will be there, like all the other countries. And Putin will not be there forever.

-Yeah, but the question is, does Ukraine remain and stay an independent country at the same time?

Prime Minister Edi Rama:  Listen, when it comes to Ukraine, and I just want to clarify this, because I know that sometimes it’s very delicate to talk in the Western environment without being labeled. But I want to clarify that I represent a country, Albania, that has no relation with Russia. Or let’s say has the lowest level of relations with Russia in Europe. And I represent the only country in this continent where no Russian leader landed since 1960 and from where no leader flight to go to Russia.

So, this is the level of relations. So, we had them during the communist time we had them in their worst form because we continued to be Stalinist even after they abandoned Stalin. We don’t miss them. We have never had in these 35 years not only Russian high-level visits but either Russian money.

We don’t like them. So, this is who I am and what I represent.  Coming back to the discussion, I believe that Europe is missing big time the point. So how is it possible to not have a reflection? After having fought a war with no communication, and not only no communication, but after having made of one guy that stood up for a different opinion, a pariah, I’m talking about Viktor Orban, suddenly there is a different approach in Washington and the word ceasefire, a word that when Viktor Orban mentioned was kind of dismissed like a kind of F-word became a word that was discovered in European politics, European diplomacy. Everyone started to talk about ceasefire, but guess what? It was too late.

So how this does not lead to reflection that Europe should have its own autonomy, at least. I believe its own independence, but at least its own autonomy, its own foreign policy, its own peace plan, and fight the fight. I am not saying cease the fight. I am not saying leave, give Putin whatever he has taken and whatever he wants. No, no, I am not saying any of that. Fight the fight but prepare for peace.

-Do you think Albania should play this role?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, listen, I am the tallest among all of them, including your president, but I represent a country that is too small to play any role of the kind that can change the trajectory of anything. So, I am very aware of it. You invited me, I am telling you what I think, but otherwise I should not be even here if we consider the size of the country.

So, these are two different things. As a European, representing a small country, whatever the size of the country is, I believe that I must stand for my own opinion, and I must stand for my own country.

Then it is my opinion, right or wrong, it does not matter, because if wrong, not harm comes, but if the opinion of the guys that are not as tall as me, but that have behind big countries, are not right, then the problem is big.

 -I understand very well, but also to clarify, I am from Italy, so my president is not exactly the one you are referring, but this is another point.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, listen, you are from Italy, well, you are from a big Albania in many ways.

-Giorgia Meloni will appreciate that.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Italians are Albanians dressed by Versace. And it is true that you have a president, a great woman, as Trump would say, a beautiful woman, which I agree, that is not tall, but trust me, when she takes the floor, she is taller than me. Just for you to know, because in your eyes, I see a lot of left. I am a socialist myself, although, I am not sure exactly what it means nowadays. I can see that. Thinking about the French socialists, for example, and saying I am a socialist in France, I do not want people here to think I am dead.

 -Do you still think that your membership has value for Albania? Because it seems like you are referring to a very different form, like a more Orbanite.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, do not bring me there. This is not true. You see how it works; how terrible does it work? Because I said something about someone related to one opinion about one subject, you called me urbanite. No. I did not say that. What is it? He is my friend, as all of them are my friends, because I am now, since some time in this job, I have seen many of them coming and going, but I am not an Orbanit.

-I did not say that you are Orbanit.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: So, I have a totally different opinion than Victor when it comes to the European Union, for example. I believe the European Union is the greatest political project that humans have ever imagined, as I believe that one of the greatest humans that has ever done politics is someone named Charles de Gaulle, who was a big European.

I believe that the European Union is the bless we have, all of us, including the French, that never liked anything for a long time. And I believe that for us, Albania, the European Union is exactly what might be called a bless, because if we were what we were after 50 years of North Korea, of Europe, after 50 years of total isolation from everyone, because we were isolated from West and from East, after 50 years of bloody dictatorship and poverty, and the European Union was not there, we would have had the same destiny than Afghanistan, or Iraq, or name it.

So, I am talking about places where the Americans go to fix things with bombs, and when they leave, things are worse than in the beginning. So, this is what I am talking about. So, the European Union is something that every European, including the French, I repeat, should cherish like a gift from the founding fathers that should not at all be spoiled. Because all the theories about getting out of the European Union, about the European Union being the problem and so on, are completely unfounded.

And as our dear and ill-advised British friends are witnessing, leaving the European Union is leaving a marriage and entering a nightmare. You know, marriage is complex, but leaving it, it’s a nightmare. So, don’t make the same mistake. You will not, because you’re Italian.

Yeah, I’m Italian, and the left is a very rare species, apparently.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Italian left is rare! Is it what you’re saying? Italian left is everything you get in the streets everywhere. What do you mean? This is why I suspect myself sometimes. When I think I’m left also.

-So, let’s just move forward. Tomorrow Donald Trump will meet Xi Jinping. So, what’s your understanding of this new mega deal that everyone is talking about?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, I didn’t talk to them last night because as I told you I was in Riyadh. So, I didn’t have time to call them to say what you are going to do tomorrow. But my assessment is very simple that every deal between China and United States or vice versa is good for everyone and every conflict between them is bad for everyone. This is my understanding. Simple.

Even a deal in which Taiwan…

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Why do you go to the catastrophic scenarios always, you know? Are you married or are you still single?

I think this relationship is moving too fast, too soon with you.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, but you can tell me. You can tell me.

 No, I’m not married.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: You are not married. So, if you want a happy marriage, don’t go to the catastrophic scenario before getting married. Because you’ll remain single for all your life and it will be catastrophic. So, I would not go there. They are there for a trade deal, if I understand well. And after what happens, it’s very clear that both need to have a deal. Because you know that say, when America sneezes, the world coughs.

When China sneezes, the world goes in lockdown. So, they need to get together for the best of the world, you know? Because they sneeze and they can afford it, but we can’t afford nor to cough and either to go to lockdown because of them, right?

Thank you so much, Edi Rama. So, we have two more minutes.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Just two more minutes? We just started to get to know each other and now you are telling me that we can’t continue.

I feel we will have other opportunities. This is the beginning of a long relation. Maybe one question there. The definition of a question is a short sentence with the question mark at the end.

***

– So, I am from Big Albania.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: You are from where?

-From Italy, Big Albania.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Big Albania, yeah. Ok, how are you?

-Good. So, my question is, you talked about the necessity of leadership in a multilateral and multipolar world. But European Union launched an initiative for its security and now there is a possibility to exclude Turkey due to misunderstood and problems about Turkish domestic policy. So how can European Union play a role in the global stage, on the global stage, excuse me, if we have this problem with the domestic policy of a fundamental actor like Turkey?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, the European Union is a patient with 27 doctors and not only 27 doctors, but they are 27 pathologists, and this makes it even more complicated. But it’s also fair to say that what has happened since the Russian aggression has been positive, very positive, because instead of becoming more divided, the European Union got more united.

Also, among public opinion, the need for unity and for being together and not living like chickens in the middle of the sea has become clear. Now, if I had the answers of these big questions, so big questions, I would have run for the king of Europe. But I’m not able to give the answers to all the questions.

What I know and what everyone of a common sense knows is that it’s a project that is not accomplished. It’s just in the middle of the way. It’s not what the founding fathers saw in their vision, and they started to build.

So, the decision to be made is to finish this project and to make it a real force in this totally different game or to continue and drag us like that and become increasingly irrelevant. This is very clear to me because when we see the numbers, European Union or Europe as such, as your president who has had this instinct to build up on an old French tradition, starting from Abbé de Saint-Pierre, who in his treaty for perpetual peace was very clear. If you read Abel de Saint-Pierre today, you have all the answers. You have all the answers. How this continent can have perpetual peace. And he envisaged a continent that is united, guess what, from the west to the east, from France to Russia. Abel de Saint-Pierre.

So, Emmanuel Macron pushed the boundary by giving life to this creature which is the European political community. Now in terms of numbers and GDP and population and all this, when you bring all the 500 billion together, it’s an amazing force. But it’s not a country.

So, the European Union, it’s a name and it’s an organization and it’s whatever political project, but it has not a meter square of its own. Every meter square of the European Union, it’s the meter square of someone that is part of it.

The answer is to respond to the question. We want to go forward with the project or we’ll continue to do both in the same way and spend incredible amounts of money to militarize Europe with consequences that I hope are wrong and I hope that everyone else from whom I try to learn and understand is wrong in saying that in a few years’ time we can be broken. We can be broken. And we’ll have weapons, and we’ll have ammunitions, and we’ll have military power in inventories that will be the one side of a story that will be full of discontent, of frustration, of I don’t know.

I’m not going to talk about revolution because the word revolution in this precise place where we are talking, it’s not a joke and it’s not something like in Italy or in Albania. When you pronounce revolution in this country, you know that people here don’t joke. We joke, right? Italians and Albanians. That’s why we’ll survive every nuclear war.

-Prime Minister, it was a very interesting conversation.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: A second question before we leave. We cannot have even the questions in Italy. Bring it out of Italy, out of Albania, because we are here in France and we are offending this country. They can’t stand people speaking Italian in this country.

-How realistic is European integration with international divisions within the Western Balkans? Should regional reconciliation come first for Albania?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, we are very firm in our belief that not only is peace better than everything else, but that happier the neighbors, happier the house. This is something I’ve learned from my grandmother. So, don’t take care just for yourself, but think also about the neighbor. And if you are celebrating, be sure that the neighbor is not starving, because then your celebration can go to hell.

So, we have conducted policy in the region of peace, communication, dialogue, and cooperation with everyone. When I visited Serbia, and you know it, maybe others don’t, 68 years after the last visit, we are neighbors. And of course, we have a problem with Serbia, a big problem, which is Kosova, or Kosovo, as they say here.

Kosovo is a problem, because for us it’s a state, not just for us, but for many of the EU countries, for Serbia and for some other countries, it’s not. And it’s a big problem.

But we would continue to stay back-to-back, and we would continue to fuel discontent, and to fuel tension, and to fuel negative energies, and to do harm to ourselves, to our economy, to our future, because we are very small markets. We need to be all together.

Or, the other option was to say, listen, we’ll never agree on that, but this should not prevent us working together in many things we agree with. We agree that our people should have freedom of movement, our goods should have freedom of movement, and so on and so forth.

So, I agree with you that regional cooperation is not an option. It is the only way for us that we want to become also a member of the European Union and the four freedoms of Europe, meaning movement of goods, capitals, people and services, should be the same in our region. We cannot be Europeans in Europe and Balkans in the Balkans, although I’ve seen in the last year that Europe has been Balkanized a lot.

So, we are not alone anymore. We are not anymore, the only guys that create problems. Look at France. Forget about Britain.

-Are you saying France is Balkanized?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Totally. Look. You see, they can’t have a budget yet. What are these Balkans? Look, Britain. Look at them. They are even worse. So, it’s total Balkanization of Europe. And we now are the good guys. It’s funny, isn’t it? And we are telling them, make peace. Don’t go for threats. Communicate. Cooperate. Because this is the best thing to do. Because we come from hell and we are the messengers. Now, they want to listen, they listen. They don’t want to listen, they don’t listen. We are okay. We are both. And if the world will blow up, it will not be Albania’s fault. This is important.

Thank you so much.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: If the world goes better, we will say we did our part. So, in both ways, at the end, when we go in front of St. Peter, we will be given, for sure, a place in paradise as Albanians. Brits and French? I’m not sure.

-We certainly must close this session. Next time in Paris, we will invite you to the Grand Continent. So, we can talk in French.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: I hope that there will be a next time with you.

Thank you so much, Edi Rama!