Prime Minister Rama’s Dialogue at the Forum:
Question: Prime Minister Rama, how important is the relationship with the EU in modernizing Albania’s institutions, or is that coming from Albania itself?
Prime Minister Rama:
Thank you! First let me congratulate you for the incurable optimism when you said that in 50 minutes you will solve everything here because I don’t think that is doable. Anyway, we will try. And going back to the EU and to the whole the situation, I think we at least here in the Balkans have to be clear on a very simple point. The EU process for us is not a trip to go somewhere, because some people are expecting this from us, but it is a modernization path that is possible for our societies to fill the gap with the future only through the EU integration process. And as such, I think that the EU integration process is even more important than membership in this moment, because it helps us to build states we never had in terms of institutions, the rule of law and functioning democracies and in terms of vibrant societies with the energy for competition, for success, for failure and again for success. Now, it looks like a Balkan curse because Europe was there in a good shape, when we were messing up. Now we are trying to get in good shape, and they are messing up. And it looks like there will never be a moment when we are on both sides in a good shape. But still, I don’t want to go further with that because I know that somehow this would inflict pain to your wounds. You have already left the EU. As for the justice reform, yes, we have embarked in a process that was simply unimaginable for Albania, and today we have passed a constitutional reform, and we are passing packages of legislation that are so radical in the discontinuity with the past, and everyone is clear on one thing: This would have never been possible without the EU integration mechanism. So I want to end by saying that people can feel different way. People can feel different ways about Washington, about Brussels, about Moscow, but people in this region should realize that there is no other mechanism to let us get out once and for ever from the path of a not very generous history and to modernize, to become finally modern and live in our age. And then, will we be members, will the EU be there once we are ready to be members? – this is something that we are not really able to predict today, not because of us but because of them in Brussels. But at the end, what matters is that we should and will be modern finally, and will get out of a never-ending childish way to behave towards our future, because of being hostages of our past.
Question: Mr Rama, what are in Albania the expectations, the distrust when it comes to the EU accession process and major reforms in general?
Prime Minister Rama:
I think we are in a different situation compared to Serbia when it comes to the EU integration path, because we are not in the middle of two possible loves. We have only one, meaning towards West. And this also is very much felt as such by the society, is very much connected with our past, which was an impediment to meet West based on an always-present dream of the Albanians to be part of Europe. So, I must say that we have been able to make reforms that were never made in our country, because people have realized that this is the way to modernize and to be part of this big European family, whatever this means nowadays. And again I want to stress that it’s our responsibility and it’s our battle as leaders to make sure that people realize that the EU integration is not about between choosing between different possible loves. It’s about choosing between the future and the past in terms of what state we want to have, what institutions we want to have, what societies we want to have. And as such, I think it’s a unique and irreplaceable tool of modernization. Then again, when it comes to reforms, it’s always difficult, it’s always painful, it’s always a big burden of responsibility to call for people’s support and sacrifices, because in the end we lead reforms, and people are the firs to pay the cost. But when the costs are worth, then we must move on firmly, and no doubt this is the only safe thing we can do for our countries.
Prime Minister Rama:
I just wanted to say, two choices in the sense of people’s feelings because it sounded like that when Mr Vučić we don’t have two loves, we have one love, which is that for Serbia, it looks like we don’t have two choices, we have only one love for ourselves. This is what I wanted to make clear because it’s clear also in the public opinion the big difference between Albania and Serbia. In Albania there is no kind of dilemma within the public opinion about what is the choice. In Serbia it’s different, and I don’t mean good or bad, I’m only saying that it is different. And that’s why I mentioned that the choice is sometimes undermined by these two loves in the level of the public opinion, I didn’t mean in the level of a clear choice of the government or of the prime minister.
Question: Mr Rama, for the first time Albania has noted the movement of refugees into your country. Are you worried that things are going to break down?
Prime Minister Rama:
We were not and are not part of the so-called “Balkan route”, and therefore are not affected like Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia and Slovenia are. But, from day one we’ve had a very clear position, that geography cannot be an excuse for not being Europeans. And it’ amazing, and I’ve said it in several occasions, when we’ve gathered with European leaders, to see how some EU member are acting on that base, because geography has been generous to them in the sense that it has not created a route for emigrants, they allow themselves to behave like they are not Europeans. And Serbia, which is not a EU member state, has behaved in a much more European manner than other countries in the EU – I don’t want to mention all of them because they are a lot. So, what does it mean? It means that we in the Balkans are too naive about this dream, or it means that many of these countries that have entered the EU, have transformed this dream in just an ATM machine? And I’m afraid that this is a very disturbing sign of what is happening within the Union.
We are not part of the route, but we are ready to share with others the burden of responsibility to be European, because it is not fair to see countries in the Balkan route or further suffer because of their geography, and for us to just stay out of it. But at the same time, we can share our burden of responsibility, once everyone is ready to do so. And for me, this crisis has been the most astonishing examples of how the EU is not able to be the EU, because in terms of organization and coordination it’s a mess. Just imagine if Angela Merkel were not there to save Europe’s face, what would we see? And if in Berlin there were a brother or a sister of Viktor Orbán, what would you see?
It’s a big challenge, but I can say that very proudly we can tell the European Union: yes, maybe we are not able to fulfil criteria, standards, procedures, etc., to be respected as an equal member state, but we are ready to fulfil our duty on some values which, I am sorry to say, we are not seeing clearly among the member states. If one day we are to be judged by a state that is not behaving like European, because on our I don’t know, quotes for fishing, I thinks that first and foremost we are behaving like Europeans in the very good sense of it, and for us it has always been clear.
We have hosted around three thousand Iranian opposition refugees, political refugees. There were being killed in Camp Liberty in Iraq, and nobody wanted to deal with it. And they are being killed, and killed, and killed. As Albanians, we have a proud history of saving Jews during World War II. We welcome them. We are a small country, and if you look at the figures of migration flows today, may be 3000 doesn’t look much, but I’m telling you because it was organized in a very good manner, nobody sees it, nobody has a problem with it. Imagine if Europe organized in a proper manner, and didn’t ping pong these people from one border to another, maybe these 1 million people who are already in Europe wouldn’t be seen by anyone. Because, for the 500 million people that Europe has today, 1 million is nothing and can be absorbed very easily. But of course, when you are not organized, when you leave to the Greeks the management of the flux, of course you have a mess. And then, what do you do? On a Sunday you have 15 thousand refugees in the Munich train station, and that’s it. And then you have to deal with some idiots there that go from 10% to 15%, by bringing back some ghosts of the past we had left behind.
Question: What happens if Angela Merkel is no longer chancellor in, let’s say, 10 month time? How much is the Western Balkan depending on a single personality and her vision for this region? And how dangerous is that?
Prime Minister Rama:
I will cut it very shortly. I’m not competing for Angela’s heart. I can agree with Vučić and I can only say that she will be the next chancellor, and Donald Trump will not be the next President of the US. This is my assumption.
Prime Minister Vučić:
I do not know that, but he knows that.
Prime Minister Rama:
Yes, I know that. When it comes to Moscow, I’ll ask you.
Prime Minister Vučić:
I don’t know what it will happen in Moscow either.
Question: I want to move on the one of the trickiest issues of all, and that is Kosovo.
Prime Minister Rama:
Now we need 500 minutes.
Question: Yes. Prime Minister Vučić, I read this morning in one of the Belgrade’s newspapers that Serbia’s President said yesterday at the opening of the consulate in St. Petersburg that relations with Kosovo, with the Albanian government in Pristina are at the lowest level this moment because of the Albanians’ behaviour. Do you agree with your President on that issue?
Prime Minister Vučić:
First of all I would like to say that when Edi is fighting for biggest Western support, he no limits for that. He can say whatever he wants against Russia or Moscow, or to undermine them. I don’t do it. I don’t do it with the Western powers, I don’t do it with Russia, I don’t do it with China, and we are in different positions indeed. And that’s why the polls show different results in Albania and Serbia regarding the EU path of our two countries. But there are some other reasons as well. The EU is seen here also as an organization that always makes more pressure on Serbia over the Kosovo crisis.
At the same time, as I’ve already said, they’ve been always much allowed to make good remarks from time to time, other type of remarks for Serbia but they were mostly silent speaking about the others’ errors or misbehaviour. This is what people see and feel. And Albania has no problems with their territorial integrity, but Serbia has. These are problems that are differently approached either by the EU or other countries. And that’s the essence of the problem.
But still I have to say something, people in Serbia should know that. We had a big support from the EU when we had those terrible floods. We have today thousands and thousands of projects with which the EU supports this country and the people of Serbia, and the people of Serbia should know that. And there is no other organization that can compete with the EU on that, and the people of Serbia should know that, as well.
Speaking about our relations with Pristina, I have plenty of arguments to use to say that the other side is guilty, but I’m not going to do it. I’m sure they have arguments to blame us. My conclusion would be that we carry on our dialogue process in a very passionate way, because this is one of the preconditions for the economic development of an entire region, for better living standards of the Serbian people. This is something we need to do for the future of relations between Albania and Serbia because these are the two biggest nations in the Western Balkans, and it will be the case in the next 100 years, and we have to create that backbone of goodwill in the Western Balkans, and everything else will be much easier to resolve in the future.
I know that there are many people in Serbia who don’t get what I’m saying now, and they would say that Vučić is a friend of Albanians, or he does this and that, I don’t care. I say what I think, and I’m sure I’m saying the truth. And it’s not going to be easy, and you know, we speak to Albanian leaders in Kosovo, which is a good thing. We don’t stop our process, although it seems sometimes that there is a dead end at the end of the street, but I do not believe in that. I think that we need to find more compromises, otherwise we will be stuck speaking about our EU path, our economic development, or better lives for average people in Belgrade, Pristina, Tirana.
I just want to say that yes, we will invest more time and energy but it’s going to be harder and tougher day by day, and that’s what I was saying at the beginning of the Forum, because the atmosphere has changed completely, and it is very difficult not only for our side but also to the other side to deal with that, and it’s not going to be better.
Prime Minister Rama:
Let me take form where Aleksndar left. He said in the beginning that we are against Russia. We are not against Russia, and even within NATO we were among the countries that were advocating the need for a combined strategy of dialogue and restraint, not simply restraint. We live in a world where many things are connected, and we do not have the luxury to not talk to each other, whether we agree or not, whether we are or not on the same side.
Now, going to the question. Kosovo is where we completely disagree. My view is that the sooner Serbia recognizes Kosovo, the better will be for everyone. But in the same time, there is a process which I fully support and for which I have always said very blandly that both sides, both leaders from Belgrade and Pristina should be praised, the dialogue.
The dialogue that is a very important tool to anchor the power in the future, because in the end it is not just about what people think of Russia, the West, or what the priests think about the holy places. It’s about where the powers should be anchored in this country we are, and generally in this region.
The power used to be anchored in the past. I very much praise the efforts of Aleksandar to move the power’s anchor in the future. But at the same time I think that we should never forget that while we dialogue, we are talking about people, we’re not talking about history, or what the president or the prime minister like, what the Patriarch likes, but talking about the people.
Let me give you an example. I was passing through Serbia yesterday, and all over the place I saw Trepca, Trepca, Trepca. Now, I have a simple question. Trepca is a mine in Kosovo’s soil. What do you do with Trepca? You transport it here in Belgrade? On the other hand, in Kosovo they should realize that Trepca is a mine in Kosovo’s soil and it belongs to Kosovo’s citizens, whether Albanians or Serbs. And in the end of the day, Trepca is about economy. Therefore, should the economy decide if this mine is feasible, is not feasible, is working is not working? Or should politics decide? So, it looks like a trivial question, but the answer is not so easy.
Let’s take another hot topic. How can we move forward without clearing this list of people who are wanted? I can understand all the arguments, but when someone is crossing the border here, and it has happened for the 10th time, and out of these ten times he is arrested. What does this mean, what does this tell people?
The last thing I have to say is that, on both sides, Kosovo and Serbia, I am convinced that the priority when we think about each other is to make people happy, make happy the Serbs in northern Kosovo, and make happy the Albanians in southern Serbia. This should be the goal. The happier these people are, the better things will be, and lesser room for idiots and for people who want to take back the anchor of power in the past.
This is fundamental, therefore we should not get lost in translation. Both countries have pledged to go forward and leave the past behind. And I fully agree with Aleksandar. I’m sure, and that’s why I came here first, and I’ll be back as much as it is needed, and I don’t care what some people might say. The last time I left Tirana to come to Belgrade, I was a traitor, and when I was back I was a hero. But I am neither a traitor nor hero, I’m just a person who believes that Albanians and Serbs can do together, for themselves and for the region, what the French and Germans did for themselves and for Europe, after centuries of division by a river of blood. The examples are there, we are here, and the future is in our hands, either we grasp it or otherwise we confess to Patriarch. I do not know what to say.
Prime Minister Vučić:
To tell the truth, when I noticed the presence of Kosovar media, I knew it from the beginning that Edi would do some daily politics. He is a far better politician than I am. I did not use this opportunity to say something bad about Pristina’s counterparts, and I’m not going to do that. But I will take two examples that he took to explain the situation between Belgrade and Pristina.
He was talking about Trepca. I dare say that I know a bit more than Edi on this issue, at least I think so. If he says that this is an economic issue, Pristina made the worst possible move for the economic development of Trepca.
When we say that it is done for the benefit of both Albanians and Serbs, can you find one Serb who would agree with that? Have they tried to find one Serb who agree with that? They did not try to talk with the Serbs who live in Kosovo and work in Trepca. They skipped all the procedures that actually they established. They didn’t care about it, they wanted for their internal political, and I still don’t get why they did it.
Going back to the issue of Nehat Thaci, you were referring to that case if I’m not mistaken. I know nothing about his case. I didn’t see his file, otherwise I would have done something illegal here in this country. And we have just opened chapter 23, and I was warned about smaller cases by the EU not to do so, and I hope the EU doesn’t have double standards, as they use to have from time to time. At the same time, we it was not enough for us, it was not a good reason for us to stop the negotiations, to stop the talks, to stop the dialogue, although we were faced with the terrible case launched against Oliver Ivanovic, who was arrested, detained and imprisoned in different ways for two and a half years. And you didn’t hear that argument from myself, as a key argument or as a sufficient argument to stop the dialogue, to argue with someone, or to say OK, now we don’t need to discuss further issues with Kosovo Albanians. Do you really believe that someone arrested Nehat Thaci deliberately, for political purposes? No, nobody did it. There was a warrant issued in 1997, 1998.
Prime Minister Rama:
Exactly, that is the question. We have to clean these types of lists, because we keep going back to the past.
Prime Minister Vučić:
We cannot intervene in our justice system, and our General Prosecutor’s office. But I agree with you what we need to look at all these files, but we need to do it mutually, we need to do it jointly, and you have to have the same approach when you speak about the Serbs and when you speak about the Albanians. And I do have this will, believe me.
Prime Minister Rama:
When I mentioned Trepca, I was not taking any side. And you say you don’t understand it, and I’m telling you that no one in a normal world would understand what is happening there. It’s a mine in Kosovo that is there. There is no way to import it here. The citizens of Kosovo are there, and of course it’s economy in my view. And I’m not saying who did what. I’m simply saying that there are several things that come from the past and that we find on our way towards the future.
Prime Minister Vučić:
There’s always something popping out from the past, but the problem is that we now need to tackle that issue that was completely unnecessary for all of us. That’s what I was saying to you and to your friends and my colleagues from Pristina that I didn’t get it. And I wouldn’t have talked about this topic, if you hadn’t open it, but I just don’t get it. We have different attitudes over Kosovo. You think that it is a sovereign and independent state, we don’t think that, we disagree on that as you said. But we need to talk to each other, and this Trepca move was something that came out of the blue, that surprised us all, and to tell you the truth I don’t get what was the reason.
Question: Let’s move on from this topic…
Prime Minister Vučić:
No, I’m ready to discuss it. I’m getting frustrated not because it’s the main topic here in Serbia. No, it’s not. I’m getting frustrated because you can do whatever you want, you can achieve significant results, but there’s always something that will pop up.
Prime Minister Rama:
I would have not raised, hadn’t I seen it everywhere in the Serbian media last night. But once again, what I want to say is that it is very important, once we are very clear on one point, we think exactly the opposite about Kosovo, in terms of its status, but at the same time there is a dialogue going on. We should not forget about the people, because in the end it’s about people’s feelings, and this will decide the quality of the dialogue.
Prime Minister Vučić:
That’s why I was insisting on that. People were not asked about that. People in northern Kosovo were not asked about that.
